twocorpses ([info]twocorpses) wrote,
@ 2007-08-07 16:38:00
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Entry tags:web, web: web projects

The groan heard 'round the net...
Let me preface this by saying I know that a LOT of people are going to be unhappy with this decision but it is something that I have been rethinking from the first moment I originally changed my mind. I hope you will hear what I am saying and attempt to understand my viewpoint on the matter. I apologize to those people who are interested in this project that this new change will exclude but know that it is not forever.

I am returning to my original position of making this service 18+ only. There are a few reasons for this and all of them make it easier on me for running this service. Let me tell you the story of how Scribblit came to be and how I came to this decision and why I have returned to it now.

When the first strikethrough happened I was appalled at the way 6A/LJ treated its userbase. They refused to answer questions and clarify things that would have taken only moments to clarify. It was then that I decided to start up my own service and my original intent was always for it to be an 18+ service. I started pimping the planned service in [info]lj_biz and in the original post (found here) there was plenty of support for the project even with the 18+ stipulation.

Then came this latest round which pushed me into high gear and got me motivated to get a functioning site up so bugs could be fixed. I found only one comment on any of my posts that could be even remotely construed as negative to this 18+ rule and it wasn't even negative. I realized that the comments had been made in other people's journals in response to comments that I had left. I don't think this invalidates their opinions, not at all, but the people that really had the issue with it never came and stated to me, in my journal, that they had the issue.

On my BIG post where I asked for volunteers there were probably 200 people at least who all agreed to the terms of being over 18 and willing to help. (The comments have been disabled on that post because people continued commenting asking for a beta account)

So that brings us to today and returning to my original stance of 18+ only and I will address a few things here to clarify and make sure that everyone understands what I know and understand.

1) If underage kids want to read harry potter/yugioh/pokemon/whatever porn they are going to find it no matter what
And this is true. I can set up filters and age limit filters and request that communities be locked down but teenagers are resourceful and they are smart and they will work to get what they want. By visibly making the site 18+ I am protecting MY butt so that if someone comes along and says "OMG YOU HAVE HP PORN AND MY 15 YEAR OLD READ IT!!!" I can say that the site is for 18+ only and if they were on the site, with an account, reading the content then they have lied about their age to read said content. It protects ME.

2) There are plenty of mature teenagers!
Yeah there are. But again, it comes down to one thing: me. This is something that I decided to do and I made up my ground-rules and changed them to follow what I thought were the masses when it wasn't really something I wanted to do. In order for me to be happy and successful in this endeavor I need to feel that I am doing right by me and if I am not that means the service suffers and the users suffer.

3) You know, the site isn't even active and you've already gone back on something you've said. You know how this makes you look doesn't it?
I realize that some people are going to think that I am not to be trusted and that I will sell out first chance I get because of this change but it is not true. I never made any promises that this site would be open to everyone of every age. I have never, unlike with the ads, set in stone (so to speak) what the age limit/restriction for use of this service is.

Basically, what it boils down to is that I am trying to make this as easy on myself so I can provide the best possible service to those who want to join Scribblit when it is live. This means setting up some guidelines that while subjective are done to protect me and my livelihood. Please remember that I work full time during the week and on top of that I have a sometimes debilitating mental illness and I am not willing to make it easier for someone to abuse something that I am doing and get me in trouble.

I realize that many people will think this is selfish and it is. I am looking out for me. I want to provide a good service to the users but I can't do that if I a constantly at risk of being attacked for something with regards to who accesses the site. Making the site 18+ relieves some of that risk.

I'm very sorry to those who are not 18 or won't be 18 when the site goes live but I hope that when you are you will join us.




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(136 comments) - (Post a new comment)


[info]logicalargument
2007-08-07 09:11 pm UTC (link)
I think this is a wise decision, and I applaud you for it.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]twocorpses
2007-08-07 09:17 pm UTC (link)
Thanks! :) I appreciate your support!

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]g_shadowslayer
2007-08-07 09:14 pm UTC (link)
I'm fine with this -- then again, I'm also... significantly over 18. I co-mod a gay male erotic icontest, and write varying types of slashfic and all of these require a 'no viewing under the age of 18' clause, so it really does not bother me. I also fully understand your reasonings for it -- no matter how flexible you want to be for your users, you have to legally protect yourself, too.

I hope everyone else will be reasonable about it, and I'm still really interested in this project! :D

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]twocorpses
2007-08-07 09:17 pm UTC (link)
Thank you, I appreciate your support. :)

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]ciel_vert
2007-08-07 09:17 pm UTC (link)
I am glad you said this, actually. I was worried when you were contemplating having it be only 13+. I think the 18+ rule is the best option to try and avoid the problems LJ has had with erotic content.

(Reply to this)


[info]halcyonjazz
2007-08-07 09:19 pm UTC (link)
That's disappointing. I was hoping that Scribblet would have made an alternative to Livejournal, when it went live, because it had the potential for a common ground for fan communities to migrate to, rather than dispersing to different service. My main reason for not leaving LJ right now is because of the people I know here and the networking I built in it, and the thought of leaving half of that behind due to age isn't really an option I'd do willingly. Now, I think, there's very little difference between Scribblet and Journalfen, so I guess my hopes for an alternative are dashed ^^; (and there are little problems with GJ or InsaneJournal or whatever, but the biggest one is no one really can decide ONE PLACE to collectively move to so I think those choices are pointless as well)

Which is to say, I understand your reasoning, but it's a decision that mde me decide to not consider Scribblet. Best of luck, though, it's a lot of hard work you're doing and I hope it turns out fantastic!

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]twocorpses
2007-08-07 09:28 pm UTC (link)
A lot of people are under the same misconception that there is little difference between Scribblit and JournalFen and that's just not true. I think it stems from the whole idea that people seem to be under the mistaken assumption that Scribblit is "by the fans for the fans" which is what JournalFen is but that's not what Scribblit is. JF is primarily about fandom. Scribblit is for those, 18+, whether they are in fandom or not, who are tired of the crap that 6A/LJ are pushing.

I'm sorry that you won't be joining us but please understand that there is considerable difference between JournalFen and Scribblit.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]screwthedaisies, 2007-08-07 09:34 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]twocorpses, 2007-08-07 09:36 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]gaia_kiari, 2007-08-08 08:53 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]halcyonjazz, 2007-08-08 08:58 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]gaia_kiari, 2007-08-08 03:45 pm UTC

[info]justbolognese
2007-08-07 09:21 pm UTC (link)
Oh great.
I'm only 16 and I was really looking forward to this. Now I just have to delete Scribblit from my bookmarks. I'm extremly disappointed.

(Replies frozen)(Thread)


[info]theheartless69
2007-08-07 10:35 pm UTC (link)
Same here. But I wish you the best of luck! ^___^

(Replies frozen)(Parent)

(no subject) - [info]bijou, 2007-08-08 12:14 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]gaia_kiari, 2007-08-08 08:56 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]justbolognese, 2007-08-08 10:04 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]gaia_kiari, 2007-08-08 03:38 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]msgreengenes, 2007-08-08 05:04 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]justbolognese, 2007-08-08 05:17 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]msgreengenes, 2007-08-08 05:23 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]twocorpses, 2007-08-08 05:28 pm UTC

[info]marasmine
2007-08-07 09:23 pm UTC (link)
I'm all for making it 18+ - I have two teenagers of my own and I know some of the places they get to (and I don't want to know all of them)! To me having the whole site as 18+ takes some of the tension out of posting adult material there. Protect yourself and give the majority of your potential users an extra layer of protection too! I know how terribly easy it is to get into a discussion about something and forget that you are visible or that what you are saying could upset the kiddies (or their over-protective guardians)!

(Reply to this)


[info]kylara
2007-08-07 09:25 pm UTC (link)
Thank you very much for informing us of this now instead of much later. I will probably not be joining, as moving with my friends and the whole of fandom is more important to me than moving into a completely adult-friendly zone.

Good luck on Scribblit. It's still a very promising site, it's just not what's for me.

(Reply to this)


[info]elfwreck
2007-08-07 09:25 pm UTC (link)
I will happily still support you. I will happily join, and throw some money at the project.

But.

This guarantees it won't be the site that replaces LJ in my online interactions, and I'll have to keep looking for that. A lot of what I do here is not fannish; it's religious. I do a good deal of what boils down to "outreach to pagan teens." I don't exactly mind "abandoning" the ones here--there's an infinite pool of new pagan teens--but I won't put my main efforts into a site that doesn't allow them.

(If there was any way to do it with the coding, I'd suggest allowing minors and limit them to only seeing public posts, nothing that wouldn't be visible by anyone who came to the site. That would let them build f'lists and read selectively, but not be exposed to anything that the whole web doesn't have access to. But I expect that'd be nearly impossible to add to LJ's code structure.)

(Reply to this)


[info]logovo
2007-08-07 09:27 pm UTC (link)
I believe that in the current environment this is a very good policy and decision. So, you have my support and will have my $$ when the project gets going. I'm willing to spend my money on fan run projects.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]lovedforaday
2007-08-07 09:45 pm UTC (link)
I believe that in the current environment this is a very good policy and decision.

I agree.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]screwthedaisies
2007-08-07 09:30 pm UTC (link)
Disclaimer: I'm not only over 18 but I also run an 18+ site, so, you know, I come to your post already carrying two biases toward your decision. :)

I think this is a good decision. If Scribblit were the only service of its kind available, maybe it wouldn't be so much good decision, but (Journalfen notwithstanding) there are plenty of all-ages journaling/blogging sites on the Interwebs these days, and hosting gets cheaper all the time. (Though...even if it were the only service of its kind available, I'd still probably lean toward "Eh, give them the source code and let them open their own all-ages site." That's what I tell people who want Rockfic to change certain policies--"Sounds like you need to run your own site. If you need help finding hosting, getting the software installed, etc., drop me a line.")

I think it'll be easier for you to defend the presence of adult content on the site if the whole site is unambiguously for adults.

And the whole age filter thing would have taken time to code--time I'd much rather you use to debug Scribblit and getting it pretty and shiny and ready for its debut. (I guess that means I actually showed up with three biases. :))

(Reply to this)


[info]jassanja
2007-08-07 09:30 pm UTC (link)
Well, the mature teens will know how to pretend to be 18 and how to keep out of trouble with parents anyway.... ;)

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]twocorpses
2007-08-07 09:35 pm UTC (link)
That's very true. :D

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]screwthedaisies, 2007-08-07 09:36 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]theheartless69, 2007-08-07 10:36 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]honeynougat, 2007-08-08 06:21 am UTC

[info]elfwreck
2007-08-07 09:42 pm UTC (link)
re: "broken promises"

I believe the only promise you've made so far is "I'm gonna start a fan-friendly journaling site." Everything else is still in flux.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]twocorpses
2007-08-07 10:59 pm UTC (link)
I'm glad that you see it that way as that's how I see it as well. But I do know that some people will not see it that way and I wanted to address it up front.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]bardsley
2007-08-07 09:50 pm UTC (link)
Thank you for your decision. It seems like a wise choice in helping keep yourself and other people on your site safe.

And thank you for giving me the chance to help beta test the site! It's been fun so far.

Also, I am friending your journal, so I can keep up on updates like this.

(Reply to this)


[info]mongoosehwrs
2007-08-07 09:51 pm UTC (link)
I realize that many people will think this is selfish and it is. I am looking out for me. I want to provide a good service to the users but I can't do that if I a constantly at risk of being attacked for something with regards to who accesses the site. Making the site 18+ relieves some of that risk.

♥ And this is exactly the reason why I have no problem with the decision, because at least you're thinking about good serivce at the same time as wanting to keep yourself from being attacked.

I'll still pimp your site out like crazy, but even if I have friends that decide not to go, I always have accounts on every other site that I can keep up with them. I just need to master that thing that allows us to crosspost at different sites. XD;

(Reply to this)


[info]anarchicq
2007-08-07 09:51 pm UTC (link)
Seeing as this choice doesn't affect me, go for it.

(Reply to this)


[info]shinywhimsy
2007-08-07 09:54 pm UTC (link)
Here to add my support to your 18+ policy. I'd actually become wary of Scribblit when you changed it to the 13+ lower limit.

Yes, it sucks for underage fans but, in the end, you, as the owner, would be the one to respond legally if you were put in the position of defending the content your service hosted. No one can reasonably expect you to put yourself in jeopardy, just like most (reasonable) people aren't contesting LJ's right to determine what is and what isn't allowed on their website. You, as the owner, have that right because you, as the owner, would have that responsibility.

Anyway, I didn't mean to get so rambly, sorry. I have this thing ;D

I have been wondering though, since I've seen the question brought up (and not only here; I've seen it elsewhere too) and seeing as I have no programming knowledge whatsoever, would it at all be feasible to create a filter (sort of like the friends-locking and custom security settings) so that posts under that specific "adult security setting" only showed for 18+ users in a non-18+ site? Based on the birth date provided by the user maybe?

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]twocorpses
2007-08-07 09:58 pm UTC (link)
With the current LJ source code as it is it would not be a very easy task to implement something like that and is one of the things I considered when thinking about this issue. But even that has its limitations because people can always lie about their birthdates. ;) This way, if I have made it explicitly clear that this site is intended only for adults, my butt is covered.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]shinywhimsy, 2007-08-07 10:08 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]twocorpses, 2007-08-07 10:49 pm UTC

[info]etrangere
2007-08-07 09:55 pm UTC (link)
I don't blame you, I see how much easier it is to handle. I hope with time either Scribblet becomes more inclusive because you can find another way to solve the problem or another journal will exist that can be like LJ but more inclusive. I still think your project is pretty cool.

(Reply to this)


[info]pasodoble
2007-08-07 09:59 pm UTC (link)
I agree, 18+ is the right way to go. Yes, it's upsetting and disappointing for those under 18 that they won't be able to join, but it won't be their arse on the line if/when WfI or another group like them finds out that Scribblit is hosting mature content on a site that is accessed by minors.

The laws that must be adhered to, from what I can gather amid all this LJ brouhaha, are the laws of the country/state that the servers are in, and if the server is based in an area where the age of majority is 18+ then it is, quite simply, folly to be hosting adult content --locked to friends and communities or not-- where anyone from 13-18 could possibly get at it. And they will get at it. Just because they're teenagers doesn't mean they're stupid.

It would be you fighting the nutjobs. Not me, not the 13-18 year olds, not any of your other users. YOU.

Stick to your guns.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]lenainverse
2007-08-07 10:04 pm UTC (link)
Agreed, 100%. Well said. ^_^

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]ex_suhina987
2007-08-07 10:00 pm UTC (link)
I'm glad of this.

(Reply to this)


[info]annephoenix
2007-08-07 10:01 pm UTC (link)
I like age restrictions as it means I can friendf everyone back without having to doubel check these things myself ... inclusive is all very well, but in the end we're an adult community. We pay for things, we organise big fan conferences, we live family lives ... I like the idea of protected that adult community feel.

(Reply to this)


[info]strangemuses
2007-08-07 10:03 pm UTC (link)
You don't need to apologize. It's a wise decision.

(Reply to this)


[info]eboniorchid
2007-08-07 10:07 pm UTC (link)
Having heard from people who support 18+ and those who are against it, I'm actually betting that you'll get as many new potential users as you might lose through this decision. I think, realistically, that this policy protects you (and your users, in many ways).

I don't tend to screen my own works, beyond hoping that my ratings and warnings make underage users turn away, but I would very much feel uncomfortable if I did learn that a young person was reading some of my very adult material. So, then, thanks, I guess, for helping me protect myself, heh.

(Reply to this)


[info]telrunya
2007-08-07 10:10 pm UTC (link)
I'm with you. ♥ This is the best decision.

(Reply to this)


[info]nsi_meepers
2007-08-07 10:12 pm UTC (link)
Random stranger who agrees with your decision to make it 18+. It helps that I'm over 18 :p

(Reply to this)


[info]mistress_mab
2007-08-07 10:13 pm UTC (link)
I am glad you made this decision. It's a smart one.

(Reply to this)


(136 comments) - (Post a new comment)

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